4E Is Boring

"Matthew Miller" wrote in message

> My Conscience wrote:
>> I have to say, when the 3.5 books came out I looked forward to buying
>> them and reading them. Now, when a 4E book comes out I can't be
>> bothered to even pick it up. I am totally uninterested in everything
>> beyond the first 3 books. In particular, slogging through endless power
>> descriptions is worse than reading a dictionary.
>> How do you guys do it, those that play 4E?
>
> Play, rather than read the books.
>
> --
> Matthew Miller

I play 4e and this I have found to be a major problem for me. If you look
back on here, you will see that it resulted in problems for a campaign in
which I was the DM from not reading the PHB DMG MM in depth. With 3e and
earlier editions, the first thing I did was read the books cover to cover
(ok, not necessarily the monster books, but I did read anything I was using
against my PCs thoroughly) but with 4e I have found much of the books as fun
as reading a dryly written textbook for a class I am not interested in...
so I avoid reading anything but what I have to. I also decided to pass on
DM duties to another in our group, which allows me to get away with not
reading everything.

On Jun 14, 12:30 am, My Conscience
wrote:
> I have to say, when the 3.5 books came out I looked forward to buying
> them and reading them.  Now, when a 4E book comes out I can't be
> bothered to even pick it up.  I am totally uninterested in everything
> beyond the first 3 books.  In particular, slogging through endless power
> descriptions is worse than reading a dictionary.

I agree. I've bought a couple of the books - PHB II and Arcane Power,
but I probably won't be buying any more either.

> How do you guys do it, those that play 4E?

Learn in play.

For creating characters we all use the ddi character creator in both
groups I'm in, that way you can easily click through all the options
available to your character. I've found this far more useful than the
books.

- Justisaur

On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 13:51:31 -0700 (PDT), Justisaur
wrote:

>On Jun 14, 12:30 am, My Conscience
> wrote:
>> I have to say, when the 3.5 books came out I looked forward to buying
>> them and reading them.  Now, when a 4E book comes out I can't be
>> bothered to even pick it up.  I am totally uninterested in everything
>> beyond the first 3 books.  In particular, slogging through endless power
>> descriptions is worse than reading a dictionary.
>
>I agree. I've bought a couple of the books - PHB II and Arcane Power,
>but I probably won't be buying any more either.
>
>> How do you guys do it, those that play 4E?
>
>Learn in play.
>
>For creating characters we all use the ddi character creator in both
>groups I'm in, that way you can easily click through all the options
>available to your character. I've found this far more useful than the
>books.

Interesting, so the awkwardness of the 4e books helps to sell their
online subscription in order to use the character generator. Given
that no one else is allowed to write software that incorporates their
rules sets (in some offline form) this should help to keep folks roped
into the monthly subscription model.

--

Kyle Wilson
email: kylewilson.RemoveThis@wilson.mv.com

My Conscience wrote:
> How do you guys do it, those that play 4E?

I don't read the powers, magic items, or any other list. I look them up
in the Compendium or Character Builder as needed.

I do read the new rules and the bits of flavour though.

However, since WotC pulled their pdfs, I haven't picked up a book
either. I /may/ pick up the Italian translation of Eberron, but that'll
be it.

Parvati V
--
"What is brain? Pai don't have such thing" - Pai, 3x3 eyes
UnaMoleDiDadi (TreEmme Torino): http://umdd.altervista.org/
http://parvatiquinta.blogspot.com/

Kyle Wilson wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 13:51:31 -0700 (PDT), Justisaur
> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 14, 12:30 am, My Conscience
>> wrote:
>>> I have to say, when the 3.5 books came out I looked forward to
>>> buying them and reading them. Now, when a 4E book comes out I can't
>>> be bothered to even pick it up. I am totally uninterested in
>>> everything beyond the first 3 books. In particular, slogging
>>> through endless power descriptions is worse than reading a
>>> dictionary.
>>
>> I agree. I've bought a couple of the books - PHB II and Arcane
>> Power, but I probably won't be buying any more either.
>>
>>> How do you guys do it, those that play 4E?
>>
>> Learn in play.
>>
>> For creating characters we all use the ddi character creator in both
>> groups I'm in, that way you can easily click through all the options
>> available to your character. I've found this far more useful than
>> the books.
>
> Interesting, so the awkwardness of the 4e books helps to sell their
> online subscription in order to use the character generator. Given
> that no one else is allowed to write software that incorporates their
> rules sets (in some offline form) this should help to keep folks roped
> into the monthly subscription model.

Note that you don't really need to subscribe until someone hits 4th level.
(The free version of the generator handles up to 3rd level, and seems to
have all the splat books... or close to all of them.)

--
Reginald Blue
"I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my
telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my
telephone."
- Bjarne Stroustrup (originator of C++) [quoted at the 2003
International Conference on Intelligent User Interfaces]

Kyle Wilson wrote:

> Interesting, so the awkwardness of the 4e books helps to sell their
> online subscription in order to use the character generator.

On the other hand it can also be said that the access to the character
generator and the rules compendium is better than having the books, from
a rules point of view. And cheaper too.

Now, I don't think 4E books are awkward. Tracking talents and spells
over many books was as much of a pain in 3E and a character generator
that does all the maths was even handier with the talent trees etc.


Parvati V
--
"What is brain? Pai don't have such thing" - Pai, 3x3 eyes
UnaMoleDiDadi (TreEmme Torino): http://umdd.altervista.org/
http://parvatiquinta.blogspot.com/

Reginald Blue wrote:

> Kyle Wilson wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 13:51:31 -0700 (PDT), Justisaur
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Jun 14, 12:30 am, My Conscience
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I have to say, when the 3.5 books came out I looked forward to
>>>>buying them and reading them. Now, when a 4E book comes out I can't
>>>>be bothered to even pick it up. I am totally uninterested in
>>>>everything beyond the first 3 books. In particular, slogging
>>>>through endless power descriptions is worse than reading a
>>>>dictionary.
>>>
>>>I agree. I've bought a couple of the books - PHB II and Arcane
>>>Power, but I probably won't be buying any more either.
>>>
>>>
>>>>How do you guys do it, those that play 4E?
>>>
>>>Learn in play.
>>>
>>>For creating characters we all use the ddi character creator in both
>>>groups I'm in, that way you can easily click through all the options
>>>available to your character. I've found this far more useful than
>>>the books.
>>
>>Interesting, so the awkwardness of the 4e books helps to sell their
>>online subscription in order to use the character generator. Given
>>that no one else is allowed to write software that incorporates their
>>rules sets (in some offline form) this should help to keep folks roped
>>into the monthly subscription model.
>
>
> Note that you don't really need to subscribe until someone hits 4th level.
> (The free version of the generator handles up to 3rd level, and seems to
> have all the splat books... or close to all of them.)
>

Under the GSL is it possible for a fan created generator to be created?
Like the 3.5 PC Gen?

--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
Daily Booth: http://dailybooth.com/Tetsubo
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:32:05 -0400, Tetsubo
wrote:

>Reginald Blue wrote:
>
>> Kyle Wilson wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 13:51:31 -0700 (PDT), Justisaur
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Jun 14, 12:30 am, My Conscience
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I have to say, when the 3.5 books came out I looked forward to
>>>>>buying them and reading them. Now, when a 4E book comes out I can't
>>>>>be bothered to even pick it up. I am totally uninterested in
>>>>>everything beyond the first 3 books. In particular, slogging
>>>>>through endless power descriptions is worse than reading a
>>>>>dictionary.
>>>>
>>>>I agree. I've bought a couple of the books - PHB II and Arcane
>>>>Power, but I probably won't be buying any more either.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>How do you guys do it, those that play 4E?
>>>>
>>>>Learn in play.
>>>>
>>>>For creating characters we all use the ddi character creator in both
>>>>groups I'm in, that way you can easily click through all the options
>>>>available to your character. I've found this far more useful than
>>>>the books.
>>>
>>>Interesting, so the awkwardness of the 4e books helps to sell their
>>>online subscription in order to use the character generator. Given
>>>that no one else is allowed to write software that incorporates their
>>>rules sets (in some offline form) this should help to keep folks roped
>>>into the monthly subscription model.
>>
>>
>> Note that you don't really need to subscribe until someone hits 4th level.
>> (The free version of the generator handles up to 3rd level, and seems to
>> have all the splat books... or close to all of them.)
>>
>
> Under the GSL is it possible for a fan created generator to be created?
>Like the 3.5 PC Gen?

Was PC Gen for 3.5 completely unencumbered? I had the impression that
it was created with an explicit agreement with WoTC/Hasbro and that
once that soured the status of the software was troubled at best. My
impression (I'm not a lawyer) of the OGL was that it prohibited
implementing pretty much anything in software without WoTC's explicit
permission and that it was particularly touchy around character
generation stuff.

The 4e GSL seems to be much tighter than the OGL was and I would
strongly suspect that WoTC would nuke the hell out of anyone
(commercial or open source) who tried to distribute a product that was
a direct competitor with their subscription model character generator.
Even if they lacked reasonable legal grounds, their history (and
direct self-interest) would suggest that a spoiling lawsuit would be
forthcoming).

--

Kyle Wilson
email: kylewilson DeleteThis @wilson.mv.com

Tetsubo wrote:

> Under the GSL is it possible for a fan created generator to be
> created? Like the 3.5 PC Gen?

No, not really.
You can only use talent, power, item names and not the full rules. And
Wizards has had a heavy-handed policy against all forms of sites that
allowed access to the rules.

Parvati V
--
"What is brain? Pai don't have such thing" - Pai, 3x3 eyes
UnaMoleDiDadi (TreEmme Torino): http://umdd.altervista.org/
http://parvatiquinta.blogspot.com/

Parvati V wrote:
> Tetsubo wrote:
>
>> Under the GSL is it possible for a fan created generator to be
>> created? Like the 3.5 PC Gen?
>
> No, not really.
> You can only use talent, power, item names and not the full rules. And
> Wizards has had a heavy-handed policy against all forms of sites that
> allowed access to the rules.

At one point, it looked like PCGen was sliding in some 4e capabilities...
allowing the internal rules engine to support someone creating 4e data
sets... of course, no such data sets exist... that anyone should point out.

--
Reginald Blue
"I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my
telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my
telephone."
- Bjarne Stroustrup (originator of C++) [quoted at the 2003
International Conference on Intelligent User Interfaces]

Kyle Wilson wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:32:05 -0400, Tetsubo
> wrote:
>
>
>>Reginald Blue wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Kyle Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 13:51:31 -0700 (PDT), Justisaur
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Jun 14, 12:30 am, My Conscience
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I have to say, when the 3.5 books came out I looked forward to
>>>>>>buying them and reading them. Now, when a 4E book comes out I can't
>>>>>>be bothered to even pick it up. I am totally uninterested in
>>>>>>everything beyond the first 3 books. In particular, slogging
>>>>>>through endless power descriptions is worse than reading a
>>>>>>dictionary.
>>>>>
>>>>>I agree. I've bought a couple of the books - PHB II and Arcane
>>>>>Power, but I probably won't be buying any more either.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>How do you guys do it, those that play 4E?
>>>>>
>>>>>Learn in play.
>>>>>
>>>>>For creating characters we all use the ddi character creator in both
>>>>>groups I'm in, that way you can easily click through all the options
>>>>>available to your character. I've found this far more useful than
>>>>>the books.
>>>>
>>>>Interesting, so the awkwardness of the 4e books helps to sell their
>>>>online subscription in order to use the character generator. Given
>>>>that no one else is allowed to write software that incorporates their
>>>>rules sets (in some offline form) this should help to keep folks roped
>>>>into the monthly subscription model.
>>>
>>>
>>>Note that you don't really need to subscribe until someone hits 4th level.
>>>(The free version of the generator handles up to 3rd level, and seems to
>>>have all the splat books... or close to all of them.)
>>>
>>
>> Under the GSL is it possible for a fan created generator to be created?
>>Like the 3.5 PC Gen?
>
>
> Was PC Gen for 3.5 completely unencumbered? I had the impression that
> it was created with an explicit agreement with WoTC/Hasbro and that
> once that soured the status of the software was troubled at best. My
> impression (I'm not a lawyer) of the OGL was that it prohibited
> implementing pretty much anything in software without WoTC's explicit
> permission and that it was particularly touchy around character
> generation stuff.
>
> The 4e GSL seems to be much tighter than the OGL was and I would
> strongly suspect that WoTC would nuke the hell out of anyone
> (commercial or open source) who tried to distribute a product that was
> a direct competitor with their subscription model character generator.
> Even if they lacked reasonable legal grounds, their history (and
> direct self-interest) would suggest that a spoiling lawsuit would be
> forthcoming).
>
> --
>
> Kyle Wilson
> email: kylewilson.TakeThisOut@wilson.mv.com

Which depresses me to no end. If it weren't for Star Wars SAGA I would
wash my hands completely of WotC.

--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
Daily Booth: http://dailybooth.com/Tetsubo
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57

>> How do you guys do it, those that play 4E?
>
> Play, rather than read the books.

Reading the books for 3/3.5 was half of the fun. I bought and read, cover to
cover, books I never used in the game (or I used very sparsely). Of course a
good book often gave you a lot of ideas, even if you didn't actually used
the rules for them but only the narrative part. A good example was the "Book
of Exalted Deeds", that gave me the idea of a "Guantanamo for Demons" and
the question about its morality - a theme that ended up characterizing part
of a campaign I wrote and fueled a lot of intellectual debate between the
players.

Regarding 4E... I only bought and read the two Forgotten Realms books, and I
still have to recover. One of the most painful wastes of money in my whole
life.

I think you are all on to something here. I certainly agree that the
only 4E book I have tried to read is boring.

But I differ from most of you in that I don't read the D&D books for
entertainment -- merely as rule references. Once I have a character
created I never look at the books again unless I am leveling up. When I
was always the GM in the past I would read them more but I have only
been a player for the last decade and am happy to be able to play
instead of GM.

It's like the pre-web encyclopedias -- when I was a kid with lots of
time on my hands I would read them for the sake of learning new stuff
whether it applied to my life or not. Now that I am older, I can't
conceive of wasting time like that and don't surf the web "just because"
.... I only just use it to look up what I want to know at the moment.

However, any implication that playing 4E is boring is based on a lack of
having played 4E or having played too little ... or playing with
unimaginative people. The combat action is astoundingly exciting. Very
much so.


- Sheldon