Solid Shadow

On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:24:27 +0000 (UTC), tussock
wrote:

>Harold Groot wrote:
>
>> Many incorporeal beings can fly (Ghosts, Shadows, etc.). Though I don't
>> believe it specifically says so, I get the feeling that the ability of
>> many of these creatures to fly depends upon their weightless,
>> incorporeal state.
>
> Seems they're flying to save them falling through the floor to the
>centre of the earth. Even when they're moving along at floor level,
>they're still flying, as they are inside solid objects.
>
>> If an incorporeal being (such as a Shadow) was turned corporeal by the
>> Ghost Trap spell (Spell Compendium, p. 103) [...]. So maybe the ONLY
>> game effect intended is that they lose the 50% miss chance with magic
>> weapons and spells and the 100% miss chance with non-magic weapons.
>
> Incorporial also gives them touch attacks and crit immunity, so
>they'd lose both (though many are undead and keep the latter that way).
>They should also gain a Str score equal to their Cha, if they don't have
>one already. Something like a Shadow could then grapple, perhaps gaining
>the Str damage as an automatic effect as long as it keeps the hold.
>
> I think they perhaps /should/ lose the ability to fly, iff they're an
>incorporeal version of something that shouldn't normally fly; however
>that'd be an unneeded house rule.
>
>> If the incorporeal being is partly in a wall when you cast this spell,
>> does his entire body try to turn solid including the part in the wall?
>
> This is 3e, so the creature is either in the wall, or not in the
>wall. If it's in, it's not affected. If it's out, it can't get back in.
>As a quick hatchet job, one could argue an incorporial creature in a wall
>space cannot attack into an open space warded by this spell without
>stepping forth.
>
>--
> tussock
>
>The different ways one can approach D&D is what makes it D&D.


As to "either you're in or you're out" - well, yes, that is the
general intent of D&D rules for medium creatures, that you have to
choose a square to be in at the end of your turn. But they
specifically mention that a common practice of Shadows is to pop up
out of the floor (or lean out of a wall) and attack and then go back
(just as a medium-sized fighter can attack someone in the next square
over - they can reach 5'). But with the Shadows, suppose you had a
Readied Action to cast Ghost Trap when they reach into the square to
attack? Even though they are supposed to occupy a specific square at
the end of their turn, you have interrupted their turn with your
readied action - and they ARE part way in and part way out of the wall
when you get your readied action. As long as they get back to a
specific square by the end of their round they are following the rules
about being in a only one square rather than straddling a line.

If you don't wish to answer based on that, how about answering based
on a Large Shadow that can occupy both a square inside a wall and a
square outside the wall at the same time?

(It turns out I didn't get a chance yesterday to find out how my DM
plays it - I rolled a 1 on my init roll and the situation changed so
much by the time it got to me that I never had a legitimate chance to
try it out. "No plan survives contact with the enemy" and all that.)

Harold Groot wrote:
> tussock wrote:
>> Harold Groot wrote:

>>> If the incorporeal being is partly in a wall when you cast this spell,
>>> does his entire body try to turn solid including the part in the wall?
>>
>> This is 3e, so the creature is either in the wall, or not in the
>> wall. If it's in, it's not affected. If it's out, it can't get back in.
>> As a quick hatchet job, one could argue an incorporial creature in a
>> wall space cannot attack into an open space warded by this spell
>> without stepping forth.
>
> As to "either you're in or you're out" - well, yes, that is the general
> intent of D&D rules for medium creatures, that you have to choose a
> square to be in at the end of your turn.

It's more than just the spaces though. Every game condition is a
binary choice like that, you're either incorporial or you're not, and
it's the space you're in that determines if you're affected by an area of
effect, no where you reach to.

> But they specifically mention that a common practice of Shadows is
> to pop up out of the floor (or lean out of a wall) and attack and
> then go back (just as a medium-sized fighter can attack someone in the
> next square over - they can reach 5').

Sure, so with the spell on they can't, because that would leave them
in an impossible state. A strict reading might not affect them at all,
but that's a touch too unreasonable for me.

> But with the Shadows, suppose you had a Readied Action to cast Ghost
> Trap when they reach into the square to attack?

You're breaking the abstraction at that point: like with all those
wierd ready action issues, it's up to the DM to ajudicate. I'd rule you
cancel their attack and they're left in the wall, using the principle
that the readied action always comes before the thing that triggers it.

I'm not reading the spell description as being a trap though, more a
protective measure against incorporials.

> If you don't wish to answer based on that, how about answering based on
> a Large Shadow that can occupy both a square inside a wall and a square
> outside the wall at the same time?

A large creature partially in the area of a spell is considered to be
fully affected, so it's no longer in the wall at all because it's not
incorporial and isn't allowed to be. Place it in the nearest legal space
and carry on with the game, shifting everyone about to fit as need be (or
just make him squeeze).

I'd maybe even give them a save to jump into the wall instead. That
might also be a useful way to handle ruling them reaching out of a wall
to attack into the area of effect (or the readied action), save or be
drawn into open space.

--
tussock

The different ways one can approach D&D is what makes it D&D.