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A most brilliant plan

 
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eddysterckx

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Since: Jun 01, 2009
Posts: 110



(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:32 am
Post subject: A most brilliant plan
Archived from groups: comp>sys>ibm>pc>games>war-historical (more info?)

Hi,

I must say that even though sometimes I think I've seen it all, every
now and again something happens that makes me think “he, here’s
something novel and it’s brilliant” and I must say that this time
Battlefront’s Steve Grammont managed to surprise me like that

Over the years the Battlefront forum has become a fanboy-heavy place,
with “negative” posters getting banned or subdued by an avalanche of
personal attacks from the fanboy-squad. It has gotten so bad that an
“only post here if you’re happy” thread appeared which made Mr.
Grammont whelp this brilliant idea :

“We've never banned someone because of their opinions, only their
method of expressing them.
And even then it's a handful of people over many years. Most customers
have been very, very happy to see the majority of those kicked out of
here. The new Forum for Normandy will expand upon that concept and
allow the Forum more direct input on who should get the boot for
refusing to behave themselves.”

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1154867&postcount=6

In a brilliant move, he has managed to outmaneuver all those pesky
people complaining about Battlefront ridiculing or banning anyone
critical of them, because now they can say “he, it wasn’t us – it’s
the forum members who decided your presence wasn’t wanted anymore”.

Pontius Pilate : eat that !

This, of course, ties in perfectly with his realization that “an
artificially positive Forum has far, far more value than one that has
completely "gone to the dogs".” – and I’m quoting the guy verbatim
here from the same post.

Well, I wish them all the best of luck getting decent feedback on
their future games from the fanboy-squad in his "artificially positive
Forum" – everyone knows how unbiased and critical these guys are …
Sheesh, one almost begins to suspect the main currency they’re paying
their groceries with is “blind adoration” instead of dollars.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
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Giftzwerg

External


Since: Jun 02, 2009
Posts: 45



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:41 am
Post subject: Re: A most brilliant plan [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <f82bd63e-e658-4d41-8565-b2b0b54a3b05
@x38g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, says...

> http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1154867&postcount=6
>
> In a brilliant move, he has managed to outmaneuver all those pesky
> people complaining about Battlefront ridiculing or banning anyone
> critical of them, because now they can say "he, it wasn’t us – it's
> the forum members who decided your presence wasn't wanted anymore".

"Nothing to do with me. It's the law. The law of England."
- Basil Fawlty

As a practical matter, it's little different than what most forums do;
install the most obsequious superfanboys as "moderators" and let them do
the banning / disappearing. Grammont has just taken the quite logical
next step and made *every* fanboy a moderator; the iron laws of forums
will ensure that fanboys will outnumber complainers in virtually all
cases.

And, of course, if the complainers ever get to 50%+1 status, he has but
to post an, "OK, guys, this just isn't working out" and go back to
business as usual.



--
Giftzwerg
***
"While liberals wave the Justice Department's report on CIA
interrogation techniques at the rest of the world and tearfully beg them
for forgiveness, the rest of us are wondering why we don't reduce the
deficit by selling the rights to these interrogations on pay-per-view.
The contestants on your average Japanese game show go through more
intense ordeals."
- Doctor Zero
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Bostonmyk

External


Since: Sep 02, 2009
Posts: 3



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:15 am
Post subject: Re: A most brilliant plan [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sep 2, 10:28 am, "Bloodstar"
wrote:
> Like Matrix Games forums are anything different...
>
> Kudos for Erik Rutins for preventing all those fanboys gossiping and
> spitting on ALL other companies in general forum like bunch of old ladies..
> Terminus and the gang...
>
> And before Erik Rutins steps in they have a nice spitting session of 20
> posts...
>
> And anyway about Matrix Games forums - we can say what we think about some
> of their moves more openly here because if we try that on their forums we
> would be slaughtered by 100 angry ass kissing fanboys.
>
> So Eddy cut the bullshit already with your double standards.

Well whats weird is some of the bigger critics tend to hang out in
them alot...On the other hand it might be the only place where chat on
game or whatever is still shaking.

Eddy what does this forum say when you register? Is it setting an
expectation on free speech etc. that they've now somehow broken? If
not the owners probably should. If they have..well...then...

Have some experience in forums and a believer that even with strict
rules etc. the general consensus of the forum eventually takes over
landing you somewhere in the middle. Take time though and alot of
trial and error.
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KG_Jag

External


Since: Jun 19, 2009
Posts: 5



(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:44 am
Post subject: Re: A most brilliant plan [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sep 2, 4:41 am, Giftzwerg wrote:
> In article <f82bd63e-e658-4d41-8565-b2b0b54a3b05
> @x38g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
> >http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1154867&postcount=6
>
> > In a brilliant move, he has managed to outmaneuver all those pesky
> > people complaining about Battlefront ridiculing or banning anyone
> > critical of them, because now they can say "he, it wasn’t us – it's
> > the forum members who decided your presence wasn't wanted anymore".
>
> "Nothing to do with me.  It's the law.  The law of England."
>                                      - Basil Fawlty
>
> As a practical matter, it's little different than what most forums do;
> install the most obsequious superfanboys as "moderators" and let them do
> the banning / disappearing.  Grammont has just taken the quite logical
> next step and made *every* fanboy a moderator; the iron laws of forums
> will ensure that fanboys will outnumber complainers in virtually all
> cases.
>
> And, of course, if the complainers ever get to 50%+1 status, he has but
> to post an, "OK, guys, this just isn't working out" and go back to
> business as usual.
>
> --
> Giftzwerg
> ***
> "While liberals wave the Justice Department's report on CIA
> interrogation techniques at the rest of the world and tearfully beg them
> for forgiveness, the rest of us are wondering why we don't reduce the
> deficit by selling the rights to these interrogations on pay-per-view.
> The contestants on your average Japanese game show go through more
> intense ordeals."
>                                          - Doctor Zero

Guillotine, Guillotine!
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Bloodstar

External


Since: Jun 05, 2009
Posts: 26



(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:25 am
Post subject: Re: A most brilliant plan [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Like Matrix Games forums are anything different...

Kudos for Erik Rutins for preventing all those fanboys gossiping and
spitting on ALL other companies in general forum like bunch of old ladies.
Terminus and the gang...

And before Erik Rutins steps in they have a nice spitting session of 20
posts...

And anyway about Matrix Games forums - we can say what we think about some
of their moves more openly here because if we try that on their forums we
would be slaughtered by 100 angry ass kissing fanboys.

So Eddy cut the bullshit already with your double standards.
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eddysterckx

External


Since: Jun 01, 2009
Posts: 110



(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:42 pm
Post subject: Re: A most brilliant plan [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 2 sep, 19:15, Bostonmyk wrote:
> On Sep 2, 10:28 am, "Bloodstar"
> wrote:
>
> > Like Matrix Games forums are anything different...
>
> > Kudos for Erik Rutins for preventing all those fanboys gossiping and
> > spitting on ALL other companies in general forum like bunch of old ladies.
> > Terminus and the gang...
>
> > And before Erik Rutins steps in they have a nice spitting session of 20
> > posts...
>
> > And anyway about Matrix Games forums - we can say what we think about some
> > of their moves more openly here because if we try that on their forums we
> > would be slaughtered by 100 angry ass kissing fanboys.
>
> > So Eddy cut the bullshit already with your double standards.
>
> Well whats weird is some of the bigger critics tend to hang out in
> them alot...On the other hand it might be the only place where chat on
> game or whatever is still shaking.

I'm not quite following you here. The biggest critics of what
Battlefront has morphed into the last couple of years are to be found
at GameSquad.

> Eddy what does this forum say when you register?

Which forum ? Battlefront's or GameSquad's ? GameSquad is much, much
more tolerant of critics these days.

> Is it setting an
> expectation on free speech etc. that they've now somehow broken?

Nope - but this is not a question about "free speech", this is just
the first time a publisher *openly* states that they'd like to create
an "artificially positive forum" - his own words - by having the
fanboys vote on kicking the dissenters out. Whew. That'll work out
fine in the long run.

> Have some experience in forums and a believer that even with strict
> rules etc. the general consensus of the forum eventually takes over
> landing you somewhere in the middle.

Not when you have all the contrary opinion guys kicked-out by the
fanboys.

I'm not a big company forum fan - and my personality is such that I
tend to get warned/banned in just about every forum out there,
including the Matrix one. That's ok, that's the price you pay for
breaking the rules.

But let's just say that I've observed a high positive correlation
between game quality and lax forum rules. Or in other words : it's
only the companies which create garbage which feel the need for (and
enforce) strict forum rules.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
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Bostonmyk

External


Since: Sep 02, 2009
Posts: 3



(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:23 am
Post subject: Re: A most brilliant plan [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sep 3, 2:42 am, " "
wrote:
> On 2 sep, 19:15, Bostonmyk wrote:

>
> > Well whats weird is some of the bigger critics tend to hang out in
> > them alot...On the other hand it might be the only place where chat on
> > game or whatever is still shaking.
>
> I'm not quite following you here. The biggest critics of what
> Battlefront has morphed into the last couple of years are to be found
> at GameSquad.
>
> > Eddy what does this forum say when you register?
>
> Which forum ? Battlefront's or GameSquad's ? GameSquad is much, much
> more tolerant of critics these days.

Do you think its tolerance or that the place has matured enough that
the given the bulk of the posting somebody ranting in forum section 42
doesn't really matter as much as when it was forum section 2? It may
just a matter or them making good decision about where to expend
energy:)

I've had several experiences with Don Maddox and crew several years
ago and my impression is that they are driven by advertising dollars
and managing their time and effort well. This isn't always so great
for the spirit of a free community but its kept them in business. Not
sure tolerance even plays a role in that equation.

> > Is it setting an
> > expectation on free speech etc. that they've now somehow broken?
>
> Nope - but this is not a question about "free speech", this is just
> the first time a publisher *openly* states that they'd like to create
> an "artificially positive forum" - his own words - by having the
> fanboys vote on kicking the dissenters out. Whew. That'll work out
> fine in the long run.
>
> > Have some experience in forums and a believer that even with strict
> > rules etc. the general consensus of the forum eventually takes over
> > landing you somewhere in the middle.
>
> Not when you have all the contrary opinion guys kicked-out by the
> fanboys.

Well if they were up front you can't really complain although I'd
agree its probably not exactly capturing an audience the way you'd
ought too. However your motivation to chat somewhere and publisher/
developer's motivation for hosting (and absorbing the cost) are two
different things. After my experience with Harpoon I don't really have
a problem with the distinction between the way things are and the way
I'd like them to be.

> I'm not a big company forum fan - and my personality is such that I
> tend to get warned/banned in just about every forum out there,
> including the Matrix one. That's ok, that's the price you pay for
> breaking the rules.
>
> But let's just say that I've observed a high positive correlation
> between game quality and lax forum rules. Or in other words : it's
> only the companies which create garbage which feel the need for (and
> enforce) strict forum rules.
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx

Not sure that anybody in any company is really making the rules or
expending a huge amount of time trying to figure their forums out. I
think for the most part they depend on the fan boy's desire to be
liked by the dev/pub (or whatever) as well as the community to keep
the ship steady and moving forward. Sometimes the ship tips but there
is always another one willing to give free time and effort etc to
steady things again.

So where are you going with this? How should a publisher/developer
handle their forum biz?
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Bostonmyk

External


Since: Sep 02, 2009
Posts: 3



(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:56 am
Post subject: Re: A most brilliant plan [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sep 3, 12:06 pm, "Vincenzo Beretta" wrote:
> Wow! A postmodern (*) approach to the classic:
>
> "All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce
> the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It
> works the same in every country."
>
> ...by Goering! However it is not the first time that it is applied to a
> forum: the old "Harpoon HQ", for example, worked in a similar way (**).
>
> (*) Post-March 2003, I mean (**).
>
> (**) And everybody can see the results.

Yes Vince I was a mod there and I did ban you and a number of others
sometime around that point. I don't think I would have done the same
today beyond just realizing how bad its bugged you years out. That was
not the intent and I'm sorry.

In reflection of it I think Eddy's right though . The game was a mess
so focus went on to flame wars and other things rather than directing
the angst to where it probably should have been. Hopefully the next
thing will go much better.
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Vincenzo Beretta

External


Since: Jun 11, 2009
Posts: 44



(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:25 pm
Post subject: Re: A most brilliant plan [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Wow! A postmodern (*) approach to the classic:

"All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce
the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It
works the same in every country."

....by Goering! However it is not the first time that it is applied to a
forum: the old "Harpoon HQ", for example, worked in a similar way (**).

(*) Post-March 2003, I mean (**).

(**) And everybody can see the results.
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Andy Brown

External


Since: Aug 27, 2009
Posts: 2



(Msg. 10) Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:05 pm
Post subject: Re: A most brilliant plan [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sep 2, 8:32 pm, " "
wrote:

> This, of course, ties in perfectly with his realization that “an
> artificially positive Forum has far, far more value than one that has
> completely "gone to the dogs".” – and I’m quoting the guy verbatim
> here from the same post.

In all fairness, I think you're quoting slightly out of context here.
Add the following two sentences:

"I'll put it out right now that an artificially positive Forum has
far, far more value than one that has completely "gone to the dogs".
But a Forum that has room for respectful disagreements and
constructive criticism is the best of all possible results. That's
what we shoot for."

I can't really disagree with that. Of course, whether or not
respectful disagreement and constructive criticism is what they
actually do shoot for is another matter.

Cheers,

Andy Brown
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eddysterckx

External


Since: Jun 01, 2009
Posts: 110



(Msg. 11) Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:47 pm
Post subject: Re: A most brilliant plan [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 4 sep, 00:05, Andy Brown wrote:
> On Sep 2, 8:32 pm, " "
> wrote:
>
> > This, of course, ties in perfectly with his realization that “an
> > artificially positive Forum has far, far more value than one that has
> > completely "gone to the dogs".” – and I’m quoting the guy verbatim
> > here from the same post.
>
> In all fairness, I think you're quoting slightly out of context here.
> Add the following two sentences:
>
> "I'll put it out right now that an artificially positive Forum has
> far, far more value than one that has completely "gone to the dogs".
> But a Forum that has room for respectful disagreements and
> constructive criticism is the best of all possible results. That's
> what we shoot for."
>
> I can't really disagree with that.  Of course, whether or not
> respectful disagreement and constructive criticism is what they
> actually do shoot for is another matter.

"respectful disagreement" is Steve-speak for saying he likes guys who
post stuff like "I don't like to pay $50 for CM:SF, it's so good it
should be $500"

My quote was out of context, but there's little doubt that's what he
actually meant, the rest was sugar-coating it.

The emperor has stated he doesn't like it anymore that people give
comments about his garderobe. Another huge step forward on the
slippery slope ...

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
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