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3.5 revision: "schticks" for other fighting classes

 
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David Lamb

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Since: Jun 07, 2009
Posts: 15



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:04 pm
Post subject: 3.5 revision: "schticks" for other fighting classes
Archived from groups: rec>games>frp>dnd (more info?)

Another in my series about house rules improving fighter-like classes.
Before making changes I'm trying to focus on a core "schtick" or "theme"
for each class. For pure fighters it was fighting ability, combat
options, and getting better use of equipment. For paladins it was
divine favour (channeling, divine grace) and, to a lesser extent,
fighting specialization.

Here are some thoughts on other fighter-like classes:

Barbarian: These are basically "berserkers"; they need something like
rage or frenzy, and I like the Pathfinder approach with "rage points"
and "rage powers". I might quibble with some of them: classically,
berserkers' wounds were reputed to heal instantly during berserksgang,
and the extra HP from the Con increase doesn't seem to me to fit since
they disappear at the end of the rage (which could lead to insta-death).
The "renewed vigor" power might be a bit too costly. So I'll probably
just adopt Pathfinder barbarians and maybe fiddle a bit with the rage
powers.

Swashbuckler: The classic image is a kind of urban light-fighter: low
armour, light weaponry, and "flashiness" both in combat and in person.
Regardless of its being a very weak class in most peoples' mind -- at
least, past 3rd level Smile -- the features in CW don't really seem to fit.
Some of the CW abilities seem reasonable, like the focus on dexterity
(agility) skills, weapon finesse, and extra damage from something other
than Str so it wasn't too MAD. I think Charisma ought to play more of a
role, though, rather than Int, so as a DAD class it would focus on Dex
and Cha. Possible ideas:
- Feint as a move action, or, at higher levels, a swift action. Perhaps
at higher levels a successful feint might deny the opponent's DEX bonus
against attacks by allies in addition to the swashbuckler.
- Some kind of benefit from "flashiness". There was a "perform(weapons
display)" idea in CW giving gladiators some benefit from a positive
crowd reaction.
- Skills maybe as now; acrobatics (balance, jump, maybe tumble but maybe
not), bluff, maybe diplomacy. But I plan to make a whole bunch of
skills changes eventually, too.

Samurai: I have no idea how to approach this one. I skimmed a bit of
the "Oriental Adventures/Rokugan" material I found online, which talked
about a bunch of schools; does it involve a bunch of martial-arts sort
of maneuvers?

Ranger: sort of fighter, sort of skillmonkey, so I'll think about it later.
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tussock

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Since: Jun 08, 2009
Posts: 26



(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:25 am
Post subject: Re: 3.5 revision: "schticks" for other fighting classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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David Lamb wrote:

> Here are some thoughts on other fighter-like classes:
>
> Barbarian: These are basically "berserkers"

In part. They're outsiders too, untrained in the ways of the
civilised societies that produce Wizards and Fighters. These are the
heroes of the natural-born warrior tribes, all raw power in a mindless
fury.

Yes, they need healed before the rage ends, but that's because
they're dead already, they just don't know it yet.

> Swashbuckler: The classic image is a kind of urban light-fighter

Age of sail, totally anacronistic, which is D&D all over.

The climber, runner, tumbler, jumper. The fight is about ensuring you
stand with advantage at all times: higher ground, narrow space against
numbers, always moving to a new one when they overcome the last. Finess,
disarming, easy withdrawal, unusual movement.

> Samurai: I have no idea how to approach this one.

The noble knight. Duty, honour, service, but to a specific cause or
person, not all of sentient life like the Paladins. Not a full class IMO,
a couple of Fighter feats should do the job. Reasonable name change for
Fighters in eastern styled campaigns.

> Ranger: sort of fighter, sort of skillmonkey, so I'll think about it
> later.

Hunter-killers in the borderlands, keep'n them dang monsters out of
where the proper folk live. Mobile and self-sufficient, at one with the
wilds they patrol (by law, tradition, for personal vengeance, or a cheap
thrill).

--
tussock

The different ways one can approach D&D is what makes it D&D.
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Baird Stafford

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Since: Jun 08, 2009
Posts: 23



(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:52 am
Post subject: Re: 3.5 revision: "schticks" for other fighting classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article ,
tussock wrote:

> David Lamb wrote:

<snip>

> > Swashbuckler: The classic image is a kind of urban light-fighter

> Age of sail, totally anacronistic, which is D&D all over.

Robin Hood. Zorro. Captain Blood. Simon Templar. Only one sailor,
only one urban, all of 'em buckled a mean swash.

Baird

--
You know you're getting old when Muzak plays the Top 40 of your salad days.
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Rick Pikul

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Since: Jun 09, 2009
Posts: 15



(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:25 am
Post subject: Re: 3.5 revision: "schticks" for other fighting classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 05:52:55 -0400, Baird Stafford wrote:

> In article ,
> tussock wrote:
>
>> David Lamb wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> > Swashbuckler: The classic image is a kind of urban light-fighter
>
>> Age of sail, totally anacronistic, which is D&D all over.
>
> Robin Hood. Zorro. Captain Blood. Simon Templar. Only one sailor,
> only one urban, all of 'em buckled a mean swash.

The Age of sail is a time period, and both Zorro and Captain Blood are set
within it. The Saint is a later character that hearkens back to some
of the earlier setting's tropes.

As for Robin Hood: Him as swashbuckler is a later addition to the
character.


Nit: Try something like "artfully swashed their buckler", swash is the
verb.

> Baird
>

--
Chakat Firepaw - Inventor & Scientist (Mad)
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tussock

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Since: Jun 08, 2009
Posts: 26



(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:25 am
Post subject: Re: 3.5 revision: "schticks" for other fighting classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Baird Stafford wrote:
> tussock wrote:
>> David Lamb wrote:
>
>>> Swashbuckler: The classic image is a kind of urban light-fighter
>
>> Age of sail, totally anacronistic, which is D&D all over.
>
> Robin Hood. Zorro. Captain Blood. Simon Templar. Only one sailor,
> only one urban, all of 'em buckled a mean swash.

I *Ehat* the swashbuckling Robin Hood; the man's a mail-clad knight
ambushing the sherrif's tax collectors on forest roads. Zorro and Blood
are both age of sail (post new world, pre steam), and Templar and all his
Batman/Phantom spinoffs are terribly anacronistic (really, fisticuffs
post WWI? Try a Thompson).

Ye olde historical times as fit wisely to RPGs.

Antiquity : -500-450. Thinkers and Temples.
E. Medieval: 450-950. Raiders and Riches.
H. Medieval: 950-1300. Crusaders and Castles.
L. Medieval: 1300-1450. Pikemen and Powderkegs.
Renaissonce: 1450-1550. Musketeers and Manuscripts.
Age of Sail: 1550-1750. Profit and Pirates.
Industrials: 1750-1850. Capital and Colonials.
Nationalist: 1850-1950. Engines and Enlisted Men.
High Modern: 1950-2050. Resistance and Revolutionaries.
Late Modern: 2050-2150.

Uh, bets are still coming in on the name for the last one.

--
tussock

The different ways one can approach D&D is what makes it D&D.
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David Lamb

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(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:16 am
Post subject: Re: 3.5 revision: "schticks" for other fighting classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Jim Davies wrote:
> You could clone some of the Monk abilities, such as +Cha mod to AC if
> in light/no armour, faster movement, jumping & falling, flurry.

Interesting -- which reminds me that "monk" is yet another of those
sort-of-fighter classes I need to think about.

> Maybe if the swashbuckler hits an opponent, that opponent can't use an
> AoO on him for any action the swasher performs in that round. Allows
> lots of movement and silliness in combat.

Cool!
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Baird Stafford

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(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:41 pm
Post subject: Re: 3.5 revision: "schticks" for other fighting classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article ,
tussock wrote:

> Ye olde historical times as fit wisely to RPGs.

> Antiquity : -500-450. Thinkers and Temples.
> E. Medieval: 450-950. Raiders and Riches.
> H. Medieval: 950-1300. Crusaders and Castles.
> L. Medieval: 1300-1450. Pikemen and Powderkegs.
> Renaissonce: 1450-1550. Musketeers and Manuscripts.
> Age of Sail: 1550-1750. Profit and Pirates.
> Industrials: 1750-1850. Capital and Colonials.
> Nationalist: 1850-1950. Engines and Enlisted Men.
> High Modern: 1950-2050. Resistance and Revolutionaries.
> Late Modern: 2050-2150.

> Uh, bets are still coming in on the name for the last one.

Maybe something based on John Ringo's "Shadow Paladin" series?

Baird

--
You know you're getting old when Muzak plays the Top 40 of your salad days.
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Lorenz.Lang

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Since: Jun 11, 2009
Posts: 16



(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:15 am
Post subject: Re: 3.5 revision: "schticks" for other fighting classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 9 Jun., 09:00, "Rick Pikul" wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 05:52:55 -0400, Baird Stafford wrote:
> > In article ,
> >  tussock wrote:
>
> >> David Lamb wrote:
>
> > <snip>
>
> >> > Swashbuckler: The classic image is a kind of urban light-fighter
>
> >>     Age of sail, totally anacronistic, which is D&D all over.
>
> > Robin Hood.  Zorro.  Captain Blood.  Simon Templar.  Only one sailor,
> > only one urban, all of 'em buckled a mean swash.
>
> The Age of sail is a time period, and both Zorro and Captain Blood are set
> within it.  The Saint is a later character that hearkens back to some
> of the earlier setting's tropes.
>
> As for Robin Hood:  Him as swashbuckler is a later addition to the
> character.
>
> Nit:  Try something like "artfully swashed their buckler", swash is the
> verb.

"Swash, swash, buckle, buckle."
And he who said it, knows what he's talking about...

LL
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Baird Stafford

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(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:15 pm
Post subject: Re: 3.5 revision: "schticks" for other fighting classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article
,
Lorenz.Lang.RemoveThis@gmx.de wrote:

> On 9 Jun., 09:00, "Rick Pikul" wrote:
> > On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 05:52:55 -0400, Baird Stafford wrote:
> > > In article ,
> > >  tussock wrote:

> > >> David Lamb wrote:

> > > <snip>

> > >> > Swashbuckler: The classic image is a kind of urban light-fighter

> > >>     Age of sail, totally anacronistic, which is D&D all over.

> > > Robin Hood.  Zorro.  Captain Blood.  Simon Templar.  Only one sailor,
> > > only one urban, all of 'em buckled a mean swash.

> > The Age of sail is a time period, and both Zorro and Captain Blood are set
> > within it.  The Saint is a later character that hearkens back to some
> > of the earlier setting's tropes.

Granted that Zorro was in the same time-frame as the Age of Sail (which
covers one *hell* of a lot of territory if strictly interpreted - all
the way from the Phoenicians, Minoans and a couple of the early Chinese
dynasties until the late 1800s), but he never set foot on a ship (well,
except when Don Diego returned from his education in Spain) - and the
phrase *does* imply action at sea whether or not that's within its
academic definition or not. Peter Blood, of course, was a nod to that
same academic definition, although I could have instanced Henry Morgan
from Real Life [tm]. And whether or not Simon Templar "hearkens back
to earlier tropes" has no bearing on the fact that he was a thoroughly
20th century character as presented - and still a swashbuckler.
Granted, Leslie Charteris designed him that way on purpose, but so what?

And I didn't even mention Benevenuto Cellini - although I strongly
suspect that he himself invented many of his adventures....

> > As for Robin Hood:  Him as swashbuckler is a later addition to the
> > character.

The swashbuckling attitude of Robert of Locksley was very likely added
after his death - but still appears in several of the medieval ballads
and lays about him that I had to read in E Lit 201.

> > Nit:  Try something like "artfully swashed their buckler", swash is the
> > verb.

> "Swash, swash, buckle, buckle."
> And he who said it, knows what he's talking about...

Doesn't matter to me, one way or the other. "Buckled a mean swash"
wasn't my phrase to begin with, although I've forgotten where I ran
across it. Perhaps in one of Lin Carter's introductions.

--
You know you're getting old when Muzak plays the Top 40 of your salad days.
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Rick Pikul

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Posts: 15



(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:25 am
Post subject: Re: 3.5 revision: "schticks" for other fighting classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:15:39 -0400, Baird Stafford wrote:

> In article
> ,
> Lorenz.Lang RemoveThis @gmx.de wrote:
>
>> On 9 Jun., 09:00, "Rick Pikul" wrote:
>> > On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 05:52:55 -0400, Baird Stafford wrote:
>> > > In article ,
>> > >  tussock wrote:
>
>> > >> David Lamb wrote:
>
>> > > <snip>
>
>> > >> > Swashbuckler: The classic image is a kind of urban light-fighter
>
>> > >>     Age of sail, totally anacronistic, which is D&D all over.
>
>> > > Robin Hood.  Zorro.  Captain Blood.  Simon Templar.  Only one sailor,
>> > > only one urban, all of 'em buckled a mean swash.
>
>> > The Age of sail is a time period, and both Zorro and Captain Blood are set
>> > within it.  The Saint is a later character that hearkens back to some
>> > of the earlier setting's tropes.
>
> Granted that Zorro was in the same time-frame as the Age of Sail (which
> covers one *hell* of a lot of territory if strictly interpreted - all
> the way from the Phoenicians, Minoans and a couple of the early Chinese
> dynasties until the late 1800s),

Nope, it runs from about the end of significant use of galleys in naval
warfare, (1571, Battle of Lepanto), to the beginning of the dominance of purely
steam-powered warships, (1862, CSS Virginia at the Battle of Hampton Roads).

It does not refer to when sails were used, but to when sailing vessels
were a dominant factor in European international relationships.

> but he never set foot on a ship (well,
> except when Don Diego returned from his education in Spain) - and the
> phrase *does* imply action at sea whether or not that's within its
> academic definition or not.

It only implies action at sea to those who do not actually understand the
term, and who focus purely on the word 'sail' while ignoring 'age of'.

> Peter Blood, of course, was a nod to that
> same academic definition, although I could have instanced Henry Morgan
> from Real Life [tm]. And whether or not Simon Templar "hearkens back
> to earlier tropes" has no bearing on the fact that he was a thoroughly
> 20th century character as presented - and still a swashbuckler. Granted,
> Leslie Charteris designed him that way on purpose, but so what?

A 'looking back' anachronism is never a problem in and of itself. An
anachronism of a 'looking forward' style was what was pointed out here.

>> > As for Robin Hood:  Him as swashbuckler is a later addition to the
>> > character.
>
> The swashbuckling attitude of Robert of Locksley was very likely added
> after his death - but still appears in several of the medieval ballads
> and lays about him that I had to read in E Lit 201.

You are using a different definition of 'swashbuckler' than everyone else
here. For Robin Hood as swashbuckler think Errol Flynn. (And _anything_
regarding Robin of Locksley as Robin Hood is post mortem, even assuming
Robin Hood actually existed, as that is a 16th century addition.)

Remember, what drew criticism was the specific lightly armed and virtually
unarmoured quick-moving urban type based on the historical toughs that
called for fights by striking their rapiers across, (i.e. swashed), their
bucklers.

--
Chakat Firepaw - Inventor & Scientist (Mad)
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Anonymous Jack

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Posts: 7



(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:08 am
Post subject: Re: 3.5 revision: "schticks" for other fighting classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Well, my previous reply seems to have vanished into the ether.

On Jun 7, 4:04 pm, David Lamb wrote:
> Barbarian:
> berserkers' wounds were reputed to heal instantly during berserksgang,

It sounds like you may want to DR while raging.

> and the extra HP from the Con increase doesn't seem to me to fit since
> they disappear at the end of the rage (which could lead to insta-death).

Personally, I like the whole, "fighting after he was already dead; he
just didn't know it" flavor.

> Swashbuckler:
> - Feint as a move action, or, at higher levels, a swift action.  Perhaps
> at higher levels a successful feint might deny the opponent's DEX bonus
> against attacks by allies in addition to the swashbuckler.

There's a "taunt" feat or skill (don't recall what it is) in
Neverwinter Nights; iirc, you enrage your enemy so that they become
sloppy in their attacks/defense while it lasts. It would make sense
to be an opposed check vs Sense Motive

> Samurai: I have no idea how to approach this one.

Take away heavy armor and shield proficiency. Replace with bonus
feats, such as: weapon focus:Katana, weapon specialization, two
weapon fighting, two weapon defense, etc. This might actually be
better off as a variant of Ranger but without the outdoorsy/ enemy
stuff; replace that with a d10 for HP. For that matter, BBN, Paladin,
Ranger and samurai always seemed like they should be prestige classes
rather than cor.
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Keith Davies

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(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:47 pm
Post subject: Re: 3.5 revision: "schticks" for other fighting classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Jun 12, 10:08 am, Anonymous Jack wrote:
> Well, my previous reply seems to have vanished into the ether.
>
> On Jun 7, 4:04 pm, David Lamb wrote:
>
> > Samurai: I have no idea how to approach this one.
>
> Take away heavy armor and shield proficiency.  Replace with bonus
> feats, such as:  weapon focus:Katana, weapon specialization, two
> weapon fighting, two weapon defense, etc.  This might actually be
> better off as a variant of Ranger but without the outdoorsy/ enemy
> stuff; replace that with a d10 for HP.

I disagree with this in several places.

1. A katana is really just a sword, never mind what the DMG says.
Longsword or bastard sword (there are variations). Some are light
enough to generally use one-handed (longsword), others are heavy
enough that it requires special training (bastard sword).

2. Similarly, it is not necessary for a katana to be a masterwork
sword. Some are better than others, without enchantment being
considered. I expect that, because of the social and symbolic aspects
that most katana *will* be masterwork, but I do not consider it part
of the definition.

3. Kenjutsu and kendo both keep two hands on the weapon (*watch it in
practice and competition*!). Dump the TWF-based stuff for most
samurai. The wakizashi was a largely ceremonial item and symbol of
being a samurai; if a samurai is using it in a fight, something's not
normal.

4. Dumping the shield proficiency is not unreasonable; as a rule
samurai didn't use them.

5. I'd leave them with heavy armor proficiency, why not? They're
using pretty much the heaviest available in their society, even if it
can be relatively unencumbering compared to heavier western armors.
It probably wouldn't be too offensive to call their armor banded mail
and make it masterwork-in-most-cases (as with the swords). OTOH, you
could also treat it much as scale mail, even if it is shaped
differently (this may be a more accurate match for effectiveness,
too).

6. Samurai are perhaps best known now for their swords, but their
origin was as mounted archers. This point is likely of dubious value
or interest.

Really, a samurai could be trivially modeled using a fighter, with
changed (and extended) class skills, and more skill points. This gets
him the weapon proficiencies and access to Weapon Focus and Weapon
Specialization feats. Armor doesn't need to be changed, but if you go
with them using 'scale mail' you could drop Heavy Armor Proficiency.

So, 'fighter', then into the Samurai PrC around sixth level. Seems
reasonable to me, rules-wise.

> For that matter, BBN, Paladin,
> Ranger and samurai always seemed like they should be prestige classes
> rather than cor.

This I agree with. Paladin *screamed* 'prestige class' when I first
read about PrCs, Ranger seemed likely too (outdoors fighter? Ftr/Drd,
move on). Honestly, Barbarian struck me as just a special type of
fighter (some outdoorsy skills, trade heavy armor for Rage) and not a
PrC.

Keith
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Anonymous Jack

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(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:28 pm
Post subject: Re: 3.5 revision: "schticks" for other fighting classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Jun 13, 12:47 am, Keith Davies wrote:
> On Jun 12, 10:08 am, Anonymous Jack wrote:
> > Take away heavy armor and shield proficiency.  Replace with bonus
> > feats, such as:  weapon focus:Katana, weapon specialization, two
> > weapon fighting, two weapon defense, etc.  This might actually be
> > better off as a variant of Ranger but without the outdoorsy/ enemy
> > stuff; replace that with a d10 for HP.
>
> I disagree with this in several places.

I don't think we're in disagreement through 1 & 2

> 3. Kenjutsu and kendo both keep two hands on the weapon (*watch it in
> practice and competition*!).  Dump the TWF-based stuff for most
> samurai.  The wakizashi was a largely ceremonial item and symbol of
> being a samurai; if a samurai is using it in a fight, something's not
> normal.
> 6. Samurai are perhaps best known now for their swords, but their
> origin was as mounted archers. This point is likely of dubious value
> or interest.

Moved 3 & 6 together to address: Ah, you want historical accuracy
rather than cinematics. If so, I agree with you on the TWF stuff;
that's purely flavor stuff. The "ranger variant" thing I mentioned
plays into this; you can go TWF or Archery. Seems reasonable to give
riding feats in place of some of the outdoorsy stuff.

> So, 'fighter', then into the Samurai PrC around sixth level.  Seems
> reasonable to me, rules-wise.
>
> > For that matter, BBN, Paladin,
> > Ranger and samurai always seemed like they should be prestige classes
> > rather than cor.
>
> This I agree with.  Paladin *screamed* 'prestige class' when I first
> read about PrCs, Ranger seemed likely too (outdoors fighter?  Ftr/Drd,
> move on).  Honestly, Barbarian struck me as just a special type of
> fighter (some outdoorsy skills, trade heavy armor for Rage) and not a
> PrC.

Agreed, I think what bothers me about barbarian is that it is its own
class. Not suitable for a PrC, really, but not quite right as a
class. Not really sure what to do with it, as I can see where it
fits... just doesn't seem right.
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Keith Davies

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(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:52 pm
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On Jun 15, 1:28 pm, Anonymous Jack wrote:
> On Jun 13, 12:47 am, Keith Davies wrote:
>
> > On Jun 12, 10:08 am, Anonymous Jack wrote:
> > > Take away heavy armor and shield proficiency.  Replace with bonus
> > > feats, such as:  weapon focus:Katana, weapon specialization, two
> > > weapon fighting, two weapon defense, etc.  This might actually be
> > > better off as a variant of Ranger but without the outdoorsy/ enemy
> > > stuff; replace that with a d10 for HP.
>
> > I disagree with this in several places.
>
> I don't think we're in disagreement through 1 & 2

1 & 2 were me vs. WotC/DMG. They described the katana as a masterwork
bastard sword, and then gave Samurai Exotic Weapon Proficiency
(Bastard Sword) and TWF.

> > 3. Kenjutsu and kendo both keep two hands on the weapon (*watch it in
> > practice and competition*!).  Dump the TWF-based stuff for most
> > samurai.  The wakizashi was a largely ceremonial item and symbol of
> > being a samurai; if a samurai is using it in a fight, something's not
> > normal.
> > 6. Samurai are perhaps best known now for their swords, but their
> > origin was as mounted archers.  This point is likely of dubious value
> > or interest.
>
> Moved 3 & 6 together to address:  Ah, you want historical accuracy
> rather than cinematics.  If so, I agree with you on the TWF stuff;
> that's purely flavor stuff.  The "ranger variant" thing I mentioned
> plays into this; you can go TWF or Archery.  Seems reasonable to give
> riding feats in place of some of the outdoorsy stuff.

"Awareness of historical accuracy" might be more precise. I actually
don't mind going cinematic, as long as it's *intentional*. I dislike
unconscious granting of uber-coolness by default, and I'm not fond of
overgeneralization. Abstraction, yes, generalization, no.

This is why I like the extended Ranger combat styles (originally
cribbed from a few sources, I've collected some in my wiki at
http://wiki.kjd-imc.org/Expanded_Ranger_Combat_Styles) and the
expanded Monk combat styles from _Unearthed Arcana_. As I recall, the
Rokugan setting has a slew of Samurai classes with different combat
styles (or one Samurai class, with numerous weapon configurations and
feat selection).

I suppose you could go with Ranger as a base, Samurai were expected to
be proficient with a bow and use swords (and spears), and some did to
TWF. However, considering the changes you needed to accommodate that,
it's probably still less work to make them Fighters, have them pay for
the combat feats they use, and trade shield and heavy armor
proficiency for increased skills.

> > So, 'fighter', then into the Samurai PrC around sixth level.  Seems
> > reasonable to me, rules-wise.
>
> > > For that matter, BBN, Paladin,
> > > Ranger and samurai always seemed like they should be prestige classes
> > > rather than cor.
>
> > This I agree with.  Paladin *screamed* 'prestige class' when I first
> > read about PrCs, Ranger seemed likely too (outdoors fighter?  Ftr/Drd,
> > move on).  Honestly, Barbarian struck me as just a special type of
> > fighter (some outdoorsy skills, trade heavy armor for Rage) and not a
> > PrC.
>
> Agreed, I think what bothers me about barbarian is that it is its own
> class. Not suitable for a PrC, really, but not quite right as a
> class.  Not really sure what to do with it, as I can see where it
> fits... just doesn't seem right.

Meh, I just made Rage (and Frenzy) feat chains, and allowed characters
to trade off armor proficiency for Rage if they wanted.
http://wiki.kjd-imc.org/Rage_Rules has the rules and... huh, the feats
don't appear to have made it into my wiki. You can still find them at
http://www.kjdavies.org/rpg/reference/feat/rage.html


Keith
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