scry/buff/teleport query

On Jun 11, 5:01 pm, David Lamb wrote:
> I've not played at high enough levels for this, but I've heard that some
> people think it's an "exploit" to be able to scry an enemy's lair, buff
> with all the right spells, then teleport in and dominate.  I'd be
> willing to see people's opinions about whether this is "really" a
> problem (causing play to become unfun in some way), but what I
> especially want to know is:
>
>  From those who want to nerf this combination: is it a sufficient fix if
> teleport strips away temporary spells (anything with duration less than
> permanent)?

any level-appropriate encounter for PCs that can do this will have
protections in place against it. scrying can be detected or shielded
against. teleport can be foiled with Anticipate Teleport (great spell
in spell compendium). buffs can be stripped by laying a wall of dispel
magic in the area that Anticipate Teleport tells you the PCs will
arrive. etc etc.

David Lamb wrote:
> I've not played at high enough levels for this, but I've heard that
> some people think it's an "exploit" to be able to scry an enemy's
> lair, buff with all the right spells, then teleport in and dominate. I'd
> be willing to see people's opinions about whether this is
> "really" a problem (causing play to become unfun in some way), but
> what I especially want to know is:
>
> From those who want to nerf this combination: is it a sufficient fix
> if teleport strips away temporary spells (anything with duration less
> than permanent)?

In general, I like this... however, the one thing I note is an issue of...
terminology, perhaps.

If you say that this affects any instantaneous locomotion spells, you're
going to nerf Dimension Door, and I don't think that anyone things scry,
buff, dim door, is an "exploit", since you have to be so close to your
target.

On the other hand, if you say "teleport" or even "anything vaguely called
teleport", you risk missing a host of spells from other classes, as well as
magic items like "mirror of mental prowess", which emulate teleportation but
aren't really teleport.

What would be perfect is if you could "bucket" the exploitable spells so
that it was clear which ones are affected and which ones aren't.

I would argue, for example, that a 9th level wish sholdn't be affected by
this... (or a 9th level teleport), since, by that time, the least of the
worries is the scry/buff/teleport combination.

("Oh, I see they're in a cave... 'I call for a Miracle for an earthquake
spell centered right....there.'").

--
Reginald Blue
"I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my
telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my
telephone."
- Bjarne Stroustrup (originator of C++) [quoted at the 2003
International Conference on Intelligent User Interfaces]

On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:35:15 -0700 (PDT), snex
wrote:

>On Jun 11, 5:01 pm, David Lamb wrote:
>> I've not played at high enough levels for this, but I've heard that some
>> people think it's an "exploit" to be able to scry an enemy's lair, buff
>> with all the right spells, then teleport in and dominate.  I'd be
>> willing to see people's opinions about whether this is "really" a
>> problem (causing play to become unfun in some way), but what I
>> especially want to know is:
>>
>>  From those who want to nerf this combination: is it a sufficient fix if
>> teleport strips away temporary spells (anything with duration less than
>> permanent)?
>
>any level-appropriate encounter for PCs that can do this will have
>protections in place against it. scrying can be detected or shielded
>against. teleport can be foiled with Anticipate Teleport (great spell
>in spell compendium). buffs can be stripped by laying a wall of dispel
>magic in the area that Anticipate Teleport tells you the PCs will
>arrive. etc etc.

And that's the problem that I, at least, have with scry/buff/teleport:
The only high-level NPCs/monsters that can exist in the game-world are
those with the (fairly specific) protections in place against it. But
I prefer a game world where high-level foes don't have to have ready
access to (often non-core) spells merely to survive.

Also - consider the question "what's to keep the enemies of the PCs
from doing a scry/buff/teleport/tpk on the party?" Is it really fair
to the players to require their characters to have always-on
protections against this sort of attack?

My own answer is that it isn't, with the RAW on scrying & teleporting,
and that scrying and (especially) teleporting therefore need to be
nerfed until those precautions that it is fair to make the players
take are good enough to handle what's left.

rec.games.frp.advocacy had a good thread on this a few years back.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.frp.advocacy/browse_frm/threa...e4b7111
It includes this post by Russell Wallace

#I don't think I've ever explained this before to anyone, so let me
try
#one shot at it now. (It's something I only fully figured the reasons
#for during my a-life research.)
#
#Q: Granted that a world has the basic requirements for the existence
#of something a reasonable person would call life (e.g.
#self-replication by use of semi-universal computation), what are the
#requirements for _complex_ life?
#
#A: Space.
#
#Q: What? Why?
#
#A: Suppose we have a population of small, (relatively) simple
entities
#X. Suppose a large, complex entity Y is attempting to succeed in that
#world. It is at an immediate and substantial disadvantage - its
#reproduction rate will necessarily be much lower. How can it overcome
#that disadvantage?
#
#The advantage it gains in return is that specialization is efficient.
#A neuron or a telephone operator can process information more
#efficiently than an amoeba or a barbarian can, because they don't
have
#to worry about all the other issues (e.g. nutrition, self-defense)
#that their generalist counterparts do.
#
#Q: But why can't X just kill its counterparts in Y that are
#specialized in other things than combat?
#
#A: Because Y has subunits that are specialists in combat and
therefore
#can outdo X in that area and kill it before it can reach the
#vulnerable specialists in other things.
#
#Q: But why can't X just avoid the combat-specialist units and attack
#the other units?
#
#A: Because of space. Space allows Y to arrange the combat-specialist
#units in layers around the vulnerable units. A bacterium infiltrating
#your body has to get past the hard, dead skin cells and then has to
#fight its way through blood vessels patrolled by hunter-killer white
#blood cells. A barbarian has to sneak through many miles of territory
#patrolled by heavily armed soldiers.
#
#Q: But what about teleportation?
#
#A: Oh, well that voids the issue. If you break the distance metric of
#space, if you make all points equally close to each other, then the
#strategy of combat-specialist units warding the other specialists
#breaks down.
#
#Q: So how do multicellular life forms exist in a world without space,
#as a-life projects are hoping for?
#
#A: They don't.
#
#Q: So how do castles, kings, nation-states and indeed any unit larger
#than the tribe exist in a world with teleporting assassins?
#
#A: By script immunity.


--
Erol K. Bayburt
ErolB1 DeleteThis @aol.com

On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:35:15 -0700 (PDT), snex
wrote:

>On Jun 11, 5:01=A0pm, David Lamb wrote:
>> I've not played at high enough levels for this, but I've heard that some
>> people think it's an "exploit" to be able to scry an enemy's lair, buff
>> with all the right spells, then teleport in and dominate. =A0I'd be
>> willing to see people's opinions about whether this is "really" a
>> problem (causing play to become unfun in some way), but what I
>> especially want to know is:
>>
>> =A0From those who want to nerf this combination: is it a sufficient fix i=
>f
>> teleport strips away temporary spells (anything with duration less than
>> permanent)?

>any level-appropriate encounter for PCs that can do this will have
>protections in place against it. scrying can be detected or shielded
>against. teleport can be foiled with Anticipate Teleport (great spell
>in spell compendium). buffs can be stripped by laying a wall of dispel
>magic in the area that Anticipate Teleport tells you the PCs will
>arrive. etc etc.

If you're up at Scry/Buff/Teleport levels then your enemy should
definitely have a lair that has magic to prevent scrying.
MORDENKAINEN'S PRIVATE SANCTUM comes in at the same level as TELEPORT
(5th) and it can be made PERMANENT. If that isn't available GREATER
ANTICIPATE TELEPORT gives him 3 rounds to prepare (and/or escape).
Some combination like TRANSMUTE ROCK TO MUD on the landing place with
EVARD'S BLACK TENTACLES and a SILENCE spell could be fun. A mage with
some cohorts/followers to cast additional spells or the Craft
Contingent Spells feat could make this a real deathtrap. In Unearthed
Arcana there is a spelltouched feat called Eye To The Sky which makes
you automatically aware of any scrying sensor within 40', or you can
use DETECT SCRYING (which has a 24 hour duration). They scry, you
detect it, you start buffing when they start buffing.

In short - there are magical defenses that can and should be routinely
used by most intelligent opponents. If the Big Bad is just a huge
not-very-intelligent monster, however, then Scry/Buff/Teleport should
work and be very effective.

(There are also some nasty tricks a villian can play. I had a villian
of Small size to begin with who used a PERMANENT REDUCE PERSON spell
to become Tiny. His underground lair was sized for Tiny people as
well. Things looked pretty routine for the SCRY spell. The Tiny
rooms were a big problem to try to TELEPORT into, though.)

On 12 Jun., 00:26, Loren Pechtel
wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:01:27 -0400, David Lamb
> wrote:
>
> >I've not played at high enough levels for this, but I've heard that some
> >people think it's an "exploit" to be able to scry an enemy's lair, buff
> >with all the right spells, then teleport in and dominate.  I'd be
> >willing to see people's opinions about whether this is "really" a
> >problem (causing play to become unfun in some way), but what I
> >especially want to know is:
>
> > From those who want to nerf this combination: is it a sufficient fix if
> >teleport strips away temporary spells (anything with duration less than
> >permanent)?
>
> How would the PC's feel if it happened to them?
>
> My fix is that scrying doesn't give enough info for teleport.

That's mine too, and IIRC there's some support for this in the wording
of the RAW.

LL

In article , dalamb.DeleteThis@cs.queensu.ca wrote:

>I've not played at high enough levels for this, but I've heard that some
>people think it's an "exploit" to be able to scry an enemy's lair, buff
>with all the right spells, then teleport in and dominate. I'd be
>willing to see people's opinions about whether this is "really" a
>problem (causing play to become unfun in some way), but what I
>especially want to know is:
>
> From those who want to nerf this combination: is it a sufficient fix if
>teleport strips away temporary spells (anything with duration less than
>permanent)?

IIRC, scrying a site takes hours and gives you the lowest category on the
teleport mishap table.

OTOH, there are ways to prevent scrying and teleporting,

--
It's now time for healing, and for fixing the damage the Democrats did
to America.

In article , quester.TakeThisOut@infionline.net
wrote:

>(There are also some nasty tricks a villian can play. I had a villian
>of Small size to begin with who used a PERMANENT REDUCE PERSON spell
>to become Tiny. His underground lair was sized for Tiny people as
>well. Things looked pretty routine for the SCRY spell. The Tiny
>rooms were a big problem to try to TELEPORT into, though.)

Nasty DM! Nasssssty DMmmmmmm!!!

--
It's now time for healing, and for fixing the damage the Democrats did
to America.

David Lamb wrote:

> I've not played at high enough levels for this, but I've heard that some
> people think it's an "exploit" to be able to scry an enemy's lair, buff
> with all the right spells, then teleport in and dominate. I'd be
> willing to see people's opinions about whether this is "really" a
> problem (causing play to become unfun in some way),

I see it as a bit of a nuclear option: 's all cool if every leaves it
as a theoretical last measure, but once someone throws one or two the
whole world ends in a couple weeks.
A few paranoid types living in sucure bunkers start poking their
heads out again thirty years later, and we have the start of a 4e PoL
campaign where the gods have broken teleport magic. 8]

> but what I especially want to know is:
>
> From those who want to nerf this combination: is it a sufficient fix if
> teleport strips away temporary spells (anything with duration less than
> permanent)?

Not really. Getting safely and directly to anywhere at any time is
counter to "adventure", more fun is in the journey than the destination.

My fix is an open sky, bare earth limit for teleports, drawn to
dedicated arcane marked landing pads if one's "nearby", with mundane
traps and guards possible on the pad. Makes the campaign script immunity
more believable.
Oh, and unwanted scrying is considered a perversion of magic like
unto zombie slaves, lawmakers don't much like people seeing them with
their less significant others, and a few areas are routinely warded
against it.

--
tussock

The different ways one can approach D&D is what makes it D&D.

On 12 June, 11:07, Lorenz.L... RemoveThis @gmx.de wrote:
> On 12 Jun., 00:26, Loren Pechtel
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:01:27 -0400, David Lamb
> > wrote:
>
> > >I've not played at high enough levels for this, but I've heard that some
> > >people think it's an "exploit" to be able to scry an enemy's lair, buff
> > >with all the right spells, then teleport in and dominate.  I'd be
> > >willing to see people's opinions about whether this is "really" a
> > >problem (causing play to become unfun in some way), but what I
> > >especially want to know is:
>
> > > From those who want to nerf this combination: is it a sufficient fix if
> > >teleport strips away temporary spells (anything with duration less than
> > >permanent)?
>
> > How would the PC's feel if it happened to them?
>
> > My fix is that scrying doesn't give enough info for teleport.
>
> That's mine too, and IIRC there's some support for this in the wording
> of the RAW.
>
> LL

The meory cheats: the SRD entry on Teleport says " “Studied carefully”
is a place you know well, either because you can currently see it,
you’ve been there often, or you have used other means (such as
scrying) to study the place for at least one hour."

On Jun 12, 9:06 am, WDS wrote:
> snex wrote:
> > any level-appropriate encounter for PCs that can do this will have
> > protections in place against it. scrying can be detected or shielded
> > against. teleport can be foiled with Anticipate Teleport (great spell
> > in spell compendium). buffs can be stripped by laying a wall of dispel
> > magic in the area that Anticipate Teleport tells you the PCs will
> > arrive. etc etc.
>
> The spells you mention are from the Spell Compendium and if it takes
> spells from an optional source to "fix" problem spells from the original
> books then don't you think something is wrong?  And every foe *must*
> have a sorcerer or wizard capable of casting 4th and/or 5th level wizard
> spells?  No, something IS definitely wrong.

the spell compendium really only makes it sweeter. you can protect
against this even with core material. harold groot above gives some
fun examples, and there are many more if you actually read through the
books. and you dont even need magic to do it. you can make the dungeon
out of 64 identical rooms, so that when the PCs attempt to teleport,
they will probably end up in the wrong room, which is of course filled
with deadly traps and monsters.

On 12 Jun., 16:07, Mark wrote:
> On 12 June, 11:07, Lorenz.L....TakeThisOut@gmx.de wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 12 Jun., 00:26, Loren Pechtel
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:01:27 -0400, David Lamb
> > > wrote:
>
> > > >I've not played at high enough levels for this, but I've heard that some
> > > >people think it's an "exploit" to be able to scry an enemy's lair, buff
> > > >with all the right spells, then teleport in and dominate.  I'd be
> > > >willing to see people's opinions about whether this is "really" a
> > > >problem (causing play to become unfun in some way), but what I
> > > >especially want to know is:
>
> > > > From those who want to nerf this combination: is it a sufficient fix if
> > > >teleport strips away temporary spells (anything with duration less than
> > > >permanent)?
>
> > > How would the PC's feel if it happened to them?
>
> > > My fix is that scrying doesn't give enough info for teleport.
>
> > That's mine too, and IIRC there's some support for this in the wording
> > of the RAW.
>
> > LL
>
> The meory cheats: the SRD entry on Teleport says " “Studied carefully”
> is a place you know well, either because you can currently see it,
> you’ve been there often, or you have used other means (such as
> scrying) to study the place for at least one hour."

Okay, then it's a clean rule zero kind of thingy.

OTOH let's look at Scrying then, to annoy the players, ahem, to
clarify the rules:
1. You need Greater Scrying, i.e. Wiz 13 and use up a 7th level spell,
which
your enemy might still have or something equiv.
Or a magic item like a Crystal ball for 42,000 gp? Wonder what the
enemy
would have bought himself for the same money...
2. it allows a save, a successful save is noticed
3. you can only scry a person/creature and a 10' radius, not places.

It's not fail-safe, and if the PCs can do it, maybe the enemies do it
first...

LL

LL

On Jun 12, 10:45 am, WDS wrote:
> snex wrote:
> > On Jun 12, 9:06 am, WDS wrote:
> >> snex wrote:
> >>> any level-appropriate encounter for PCs that can do this will have
> >>> protections in place against it. scrying can be detected or shielded
> >>> against. teleport can be foiled with Anticipate Teleport (great spell
> >>> in spell compendium). buffs can be stripped by laying a wall of dispel
> >>> magic in the area that Anticipate Teleport tells you the PCs will
> >>> arrive. etc etc.
> >> The spells you mention are from the Spell Compendium and if it takes
> >> spells from an optional source to "fix" problem spells from the original
> >> books then don't you think something is wrong?  And every foe *must*
> >> have a sorcerer or wizard capable of casting 4th and/or 5th level wizard
> >> spells?  No, something IS definitely wrong.
>
> > the spell compendium really only makes it sweeter. you can protect
> > against this even with core material. harold groot above gives some
> > fun examples, and there are many more if you actually read through the
> > books. and you dont even need magic to do it. you can make the dungeon
> > out of 64 identical rooms, so that when the PCs attempt to teleport,
> > they will probably end up in the wrong room, which is of course filled
> > with deadly traps and monsters.
>
> Even his example all require a sorcerer/wizard of appropriate level who
> know some specific spells.
>
> You suggestion of identical rooms won't work as you teleport to the
> place you intend to go not one that looks like it (unless you get a
> failure).
>
> All the other non-magical suggestions either fail in similar ways or are
> just lame.
>
> No, the problem is scry/teleport is just too effective if the players,
> or the bad guys for that matter, take advantage of it.

i think you are just too intent on whining about the overpowered
nature of the combo to think up effective ways to foil it. anything or
anybody that has survived long enough to be approachable by PCs with
such abilities would have ways to combat against them, whether they
are magical or mundane. some suggestions were given as to how, and you
just cry that they arent core, or are "lame." well guess what, nobody
is going to do your homework for you. if you want to ban your players
from using material that should legitimately be available to them,
then you go ahead. im sure they all love your games where wizards only
get to cast magic missile all day long. meanwhile, the rest of us will
actually challenge our clever players who try to get away with stunts
like these.

snex wrote:
> any level-appropriate encounter for PCs that can do this will have
> protections in place against it. scrying can be detected or shielded
> against. teleport can be foiled with Anticipate Teleport (great spell
> in spell compendium). buffs can be stripped by laying a wall of dispel
> magic in the area that Anticipate Teleport tells you the PCs will
> arrive. etc etc.

The spells you mention are from the Spell Compendium and if it takes
spells from an optional source to "fix" problem spells from the original
books then don't you think something is wrong? And every foe *must*
have a sorcerer or wizard capable of casting 4th and/or 5th level wizard
spells? No, something IS definitely wrong.